Comments on Maison Fleury: Rod Johnson has an SMD moment

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2009-03-23T05:10:40.997-07:00

Shit bill, you have some latency on your line :)

2008-05-13T12:02:28.240-07:00

Shit bill, you have some latency on your line :)

@Anonymous and Ales:Anonymous Master JBoss Archite...

2008-05-13T08:00:42.041-07:00

@Anonymous and Ales:

Anonymous Master JBoss Architect,

I think what Ales meant to say was "SMD"!

;-)

@Casual Blogger"you could not possibly use somebod...

2008-05-06T10:09:27.846-07:00

@Casual Blogger

"you could not possibly use somebody else's"

We would have used somebody else's if it did what we want it to do.

You seem to miss the idea of MC.
It's not just about POJOs, it's about any component model, any environment out there.
If you can find me any other framework/kernel that does what we do in MC, I'll change my statement.

Look at MC homepage, all its sub-projects, and let me know who does something similar.
And no, it's not Spring and their new SSAP toy. ;-)

"Well I guess it is nice to know that Spring has better engineers, because they did just that and they did it faster"

This is what you do when you don't have anything - no existing runtime env or legacy things. Then you do what you're good at, wrapping around existing solutions and spread some fud how anything else is obsolete.

OSGi is nice, but it again doesn't do all one needs when you're writting app server. You can either hack around or do things how they should be done. And we chose the 2nd option.
What we have in MC regarding dependency control, ease of use of classloaders, deployment flexibility with new deployers, VFS, ... It's so beyond any OSGi out there, it's the likes of you who don't care about to look under the hood and just complain how we don't care about anything else.
It's just the opposite, with MC we're giving out again something completely new - a very much enhanced kernel. Probably something that everybody is gonna copy like they did previous MicroKernel. ;-)

"while JBoss MC as proprietary as it gets"

Where do you see the usage of MC?
You're again missing the point.
MC is completely transparent for the user. Even when you're constructing your own runtime on top of MC, mostly you don't see MC.
Like any good framework it exposes the hooks but not internals. And we make very sure we expose just what's needed and hide the impl details behind the right modifiers.
And the separation of artifacts is as clean as it gets; spi, api and plugins. Meaning you can change the impl at any time.
Again, you don't care to look, just complain and making yourself look like a prophet on who's leading the innovation.

Anonymous, You must mistake me with someone STILL ...

2008-05-04T06:42:21.428-07:00

Anonymous,

You must mistake me with someone STILL involved with Red Hat. I left a few years ago with a lot more than "my attitude". It is funny how so many people are still upset about it all.

You are right that AS5 is taking longer than it should have.

Please remember that Tomcat, Hibernate are JBoss products. The packaging in OSGi is irrelevant and this is only a license change play. THEY think you are a sucker.

MarkI actually think you feel threatened. In the p...

2008-05-03T21:16:27.283-07:00

Mark
I actually think you feel threatened. In the past few years JBoss has been talking a lot about standalone JBoss MC - a platform which was supposed to address development and deployment of POJO based systems without dependency on JBoss API while maintaining component architecture to assemble other platforms (e.g. JEE). Generally I'd say not a bad idea. . . You already had almost that with current JMX Micro container and SAR based services. All you needed to do is achieve non-invacivenes.
However, since JBoss didn't have non-invasive and configurable POJO based application framework you had to start working on your own and with JBoss's complex of superiority you could not possibly use somebody else's. . . As for the runtime core, OSGi was also not considered, but now, since you can no longer deny its importance you are working on providing modules to address OSGi class loading model and integration. But still, you decided not to take on any of the existing OSGi implementations for such core, motivating JBoss's decision as "The current OSGi service registry lacks the features we need. . ." - understood. And if you were to commit to one ". . . it would probably take the same amount of effort, if not more, to put everything together . . ." (see JBoss MC interview). - Well I guess it is nice to know that Spring has better engineers, because they did just that and they did it faster then it takes JBoss to release version 5 which was promised Q2 2006 . . . (I still have the slides. . .). They also did it based on standard (OSGi) that actually makes sense while also taking existing implementation (Equinox), while JBoss MC as proprietary as it gets. . . so who is the hypocrite here?

So, what you really tried to do looks ironically similar to what Spring has actually done and basically beat you to the punch, and now with fully featured run-time environment, completely overtaken the lead role in terms of Enterprise Java innovation. And all you left with is being as colorful in your attitude and language as you've always been. And God bless you Mark, by being so colorful you've contributed to more loss business for JBoss then any competitor could ever dream off, so please remain the way you are and don't change a thing.

Casual Blogger
JBoss certified JEMS Master Architect and Instructor - who no longer cares

Thread Local variables are a great way to pass imp...

2008-05-03T06:20:33.811-07:00

Thread Local variables are a great way to pass implicit associations. We used to use them everywhere in JBoss to pass information under the API radar. You should GPL your threadlocal variables and sell it for billions!

Maybe we should package Guice + Warp under GPL and...

2008-05-03T02:29:24.663-07:00

Maybe we should package Guice + Warp under GPL and start selling massive support contracts for it.

We had to innovate all kinds of cool shit to get Hibernate sessions running inside Guice. It's a new technology you have never heard of: I call it the ThreadLocal.

Dhanji. =P

It is an inside joke. One night, I am in London, t...

2008-05-02T20:10:47.976-07:00

It is an inside joke.

One night, I am in London, this is 2002? It is 3AM I am drunk after a dinner with the second EU training. I come to my room, there is a message from my wife, she informs me that she is pregnant with twins. Then I read my email.

This guy, called Trawick James, is complaining that we are charging $10 for our documentation! $10 freaking dollars!!!! He worked at Nielsen Media Research so clearly could afford BEA yet was there lecturing us about how this "was not open source and we were going to fail".

The only response I could muster that late at night was:

"Mr Trawick James,
Suck my d*ck,
marcf"

Of course, it made the rounds, first by the competition, which spread this saying "this is what you get for free!" I woke up the next morning thinking "ooops". Then it became an inside joke at JBoss used to describe that moment where you reach the point where you are really really tired of the "free" in free software. It really gets to you. Our sales force would reach these moments after an initial period of euphoria. I remember this guy writing "when I read "there are synergies between our companies" I know they don't want to pay. Today someone talked about "extreme synergies" I knew it was time to run". Which was a PG13 version of the SMD moment for sales guys.

Sorry for the ignorance, what's SMD?

2008-05-02T17:47:58.079-07:00

Sorry for the ignorance, what's SMD?

@anonymousThe app server to which you can deploy y...

2008-05-02T15:42:48.895-07:00

@anonymous

The app server to which you can deploy your apps as an OSGi bundle is BEA WebLogic Event Server. It is also based on OSGi (Equinox) and Spring-DM (though the servlet engine is Jetty). I hope BEA will extend their micro-Service Architecture (OSGi-based) and expose it in regular WebLogic Server. I am sure most of the established app servers will do the same in a 3-6 months timeframe. Then the advantage of Spring App Server will dissapear. As somebody wrote on TSS: it will be again like comparing Tomcat to WebLogic...

Yeah someone pointed out that problem to me. It i...

2008-05-02T11:35:14.766-07:00

Yeah someone pointed out that problem to me. It is kind of embarrassing really, means they are flying by the seat of their pants, which is to be expected.

There are other implementations of OSGi besides eclipse, there is JBoss MC :) This way they can get Tomcat, Hibernate, JBossMC, call it Spring and be done with this bullshit.

Are they shipping Euquinox with this platform?If s...

2008-05-02T10:40:06.253-07:00

Are they shipping Euquinox with this platform?
If so, isn't Equinox EPL software? How can that be repackaged as GPL? Check the GPL FAQ.

Good thing, OSGi is not an important part of this and can be left out.

Who cares. JBoss used JMX to do just that with SA...

2008-05-02T05:29:27.826-07:00

Who cares. JBoss used JMX to do just that with SARs in 2000. I was excited as a fly on shit talking to the press about modularity and how we were targeting monolythic application servers and what a leap in innovation it was. Some will argue that OSGi isn't even the right user API, which is why Spring has to go to great length to make is semi-consumable. Using a different API to do something that has been around for a decade isn't news. There is no news here but the license change.

If all of this is old news, then show me an applic...

2008-05-02T02:21:11.094-07:00

If all of this is old news, then show me an application server to which I can deploy my app as an OSGi bundle. It's certainly not possible with JBoss, even though JBoss AS5 uses OSGi for modularization *internally* (just like WSAS, WLAS, GF, etc.).

Comments on Maison Fleury: Rod Johnson has an SMD moment

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Shit bill, you have some latency on your line :)

@Anonymous and Ales:Anonymous Master JBoss Archite...

@Casual Blogger"you could not possibly use somebod...

Anonymous, You must mistake me with someone STILL ...

MarkI actually think you feel threatened. In the p...

Thread Local variables are a great way to pass imp...

Maybe we should package Guice + Warp under GPL and...

It is an inside joke. One night, I am in London, t...

Sorry for the ignorance, what's SMD?

@anonymousThe app server to which you can deploy y...

Yeah someone pointed out that problem to me. It i...

Are they shipping Euquinox with this platform?If s...

Who cares. JBoss used JMX to do just that with SA...

If all of this is old news, then show me an applic...

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